Bertalan Family History & Genealogy

Horvath – Horvat –Hrvat –Horvathy – Bartos – Bertalan – Bartul – Bartol – Radic – Kraljic – Szekely

To see several lists of surnames see box Bartos on AncientFacesresearch
Try also see any surname carefuly on Ancientfaces.com/research, because some can be in its box more information than in this article and only then you can understand genealogical tree, which is from my correspondence.

By Eva Bartosova

Correspondence with Princess Susanna Torquatus von Raditsch:


Dear Cousin Eva:

Josef was very often the middle names but on many documents and records they used variants of all names; first, middle and of course many had various middle names. I saw one that had more than six middle names! I will have to see the pedigree when it is complete for the pattern. The first name of males from my side of the family (Maternal side) seems have been Nicholas, Duimo (Dominic, and or Lord) and Bertalan (Bartul-Bartol).

The item I wanted to explain about the name "Horvat - Horvath" is an interesting and lengthy story that should probably be shared with others. I found out from studies and records that the word "Horvat - Horvath - Horvathy" means "Croat - Croatian," the place of origin or nationality. There were periods throughout history when Croatians were kicked out of their own lands and forced to migrate to other countries away from normal cities or in small villages; refugee sites.

The Diaspora had their own family surnames; However, lands they migrated to often identified Croats with the addition of "Horvat - Horvath - Horvathy" as part of their surnames in addition to their own family surnames. They used this method to identify that they were originally born or derived from Croatian lands. There were some Croats themselves who used this method as a way to not loose their own identification or nationality where they could easily be blended into other cultures over time.

In some cases some Croats saw this act as a parallel similar to the treatment as Jews. Nazis forced Jews to wear a yellow star outside their clothing. This was a way of keeping the Horvat or Croats separate from their own. Calling yourself or your family "Horvat (Hrvat)" is different from having it forced upon your family by means of basic identification papers. A more clear explanation is that in some cases being called a Horvat had it's own interpretations for the time. As a result of their refugee status, they were seen as gypsies, undesirables. Which is derogatory. To complicate matter further new patronymic suffixes were also added as a result of the migrations.

Croatians have suffered a lot of damages throughout history. Many have been led astray by dominant political powers. These dominant polical powers used methods such as altering the historical facts concerning Croatian History itself where they often re-wrote history to suit their political agendas and sometimes to quell unrest. This was more evident during World War I, World War II and even more recent times as opposed to more ancient times where we know history was often exaggerated.

Croatian history is one of the most complicated histories of all because of it's location. It's military strategic location is prime territory, migratory routes (Croatia was the main artery for Christians during the Crusades), pristine panoramic views and rich agricultural lands have also been the cause of much unrest off and on throughout history. There have been many rulers from various different countries that usurped the efforts from Original Croatian Royal blood lines. This land has been coveted for centuries on end. This includes Byzantium, Rome/Italy, Hungary, Poland, Austria, Serbia (more modern rulers not related to ancient original Serbian Royal lineage's) and others.

The reason that I mentioned modern Serbian rulers not from ancient original Serbian Royal lineage is because, since ancient periods before Hungary's takeover and long after, throughout history, the original Croatian Royal lines intermarried with Serbian, Montenegrin, Slovenian, Bosnia-Herzegovinan, Dalmatian, Roman, German, and French Royal Blood lines; and not to mention with those from the stronger ruling countries such as Austria, Hungary, and Italy. This seems to be a fact that is often ignored. Political parties have often used propaganda to hide this fact as a tool to fan the fires between the different areas involved periodically. Instead of creating peace or unification by telling the truth that Royal Families of these areas intermarried with each other for centuries. Therefore they are all related and family to each other.

My overall lengthy point is that the Original Royal Croatian family's surname was "Hrvat." This was taken from the legendary King called "Hrvat" who ruled 626 to 635. There were five brothers and two sisters from this branch of original family members. The brothers' names were Klukas, Lobel, Kosjenc, Muhlo, Hrvat, Tuga and Buga.

The original seven siblings (5 brothers and the 2 sisters) led the Croats from the area around Krakow, Poland into the Balkans. They were invited by Byzantine Emperor Heraclius who ruled between 610 to 641 to help him fight the Avars and get them out of Illyria/Panonia/Croatia. The Croats were awarded lands as a place to settle as payment for their sacrifices and loss of family during these wars. Shortly before or shortly after their agreement and settlement to the area, as it was custom to do in those days, the Byzantine Emperor Heralius fortified his relationship with them by way of an arranged marriage(s) between an approved party of his own family and theirs. This was done for the obvious reasons. This is a typical Roman "foedus aequum relationship" which is illustrated by tenth century Emperor Constantine VII Prophyrogenet: "De Administrando Imerio" which translates " The Administration/Government Imperial Empire" (About Ruling the Empire), chapter 31.

By the way in Tungus mythology, Buga is the supreme God (akin to Tengri) and represents the entire universe. "Buga" also means universe. Buga Sangarin is the name Tungus shamans given to the North Star, which is regarded as the gateway to heaven. I was told this is also an Huns name given to a speical eldest clan member. Whether this is true or not, I don't know for sure.
Tengris: Tengriism was the ancient belief of all Turkic peoples and Mongols before the vast majority joined the established world religions. It focuses around the sky deity Tengri (also Tangri, Tangra, etc.) and incorporates elements of shamanism, animism, totemism, ancestor worship and certain elements of Chinese cosmology. In modern Turkey Tengriism is sometimes called as Göktanr religion by some scholars. Even though there has not been enough research, Tengriism is thought to heavily influence Alevi belief system.
Attila the Hun's period was between 406 - 453. I was told that after his death there was a great struggle for power amongst the remaining family members. What complicated things were the various wives and children he had with these women. I was told about a family curse that the second wife admitted to amongst our family members because she felt her child should inherit it all. The curse was said that we would live under quarrels or under corals for as long as the blood line lives. I could not fully understand the elder's words, therefore quarrels or corals is confusing to me. The elder person who described this story to me was ill and dying as they said it.

According to the family's account there was a great amount of rumor spread and this created a lot of strife for the eldest son's ascension to the throne/power. This arguing caused the end of Attila the Huns family's power. This should have taught them a valuable lesson of family sticking together. Who married who from the family to the Roman Emperor's family or the details of this period still needs sorting out. As I know things, my end of the family was the branch that eventually was the branch that became King of the Lombards and Dukes of Fruili, Benevento and Spoleto. From there they moved to Renne, France and became the Counts of Anjou.

Some people are not aware that most Royal blood lines held more than one title. Therefore you could be a King or Prince of one land and have inherited Count or Baron titles to other areas.

There is another point to be made clear as well; the surname "Horvat - Horvath - Horvathy" does not necessarily mean that you are a direct descendant of "King Hrvat" who ruled between 626 - 635. People need to keep in mind the refugee process where a family could have obtain this surname by way of refugee sites.

However, with our family it was legally and properly noted for whatever reasons at the time as in J. Siebmacher's Wappenbuch, Band 35, Page 64 - 65 and original documents in Italian/Austrian/Croatian National Archives and research studies from Count Wilczek (famous explorer and one of the first archeologists) in 1896 in Austrian library regarding the Horvat I de Palisna, the direct branch of my family from male line of the 14th century, there are significant records of our family. All of the records stated that
"Our family's bloodline derives from an Emperor that lived 367 B.C." It then goes on to state:

"The Horvat of Palisna are Ancient Croatian Noble bloodline which comes from Palisna [today Paleznik] in the Old Cruiser Comitate [County] and bit of the domination Horvati Ostlich of Djakovar, in the old Comitate Vukovo [County of Vukovo/Ancient Illyrian-Roman-Greco].

With the Horvat were a tribe and coming the families Palisna, Mikulasich [Michaelich], Terzek [Turzcek], Kustyer, Zöld and Sos were the sammtlich [sammt: collective part steming from] - lich: laughed – Croatian: Rad – happy or glad, patronomic suffix ić – family Radić] in Palisna were titled and propertied.

The large historic roll, which Paul Horvat of Palisna, Bishop of Zagreb (1379 – 1387) his brother Johann Horvat v. Palisna, Ban of Croatia (1385 – 1386, 1387), and his relative Johann of Palisna, Prior of Vrana and Ban of Croatia (1385 – 1386, 1388) historical role played, is generally well known and needs described here not more in more detail.

The newer Hungarian historians challenged the family Horvat (or like it to write choose Horvathy, Hrvat, Kroat,) and "of Palisna" and maintain that the Horvats are derived of a Hungarian Genus [race] by the name of from Vancha or Bancha.

On the other hand, it is probable that Count Wilczek, agrees that the family Horvat are of Palisna an illegitimate next to branch from the “King’s House of Anjou”. For this hypothesis, also existing is a crest, further proof of the entire effectiveness of this family speaks and finally the circumstance that they become in contemporary of Original that specific consanguinei [from the pure blood] of the Anjou genes [race].

The bottom notation from these records stated this:

*) Although all families Names Horvath stems out of Croatia this is not the case with this particular family. We have received heir nevertheless, whose Croatian origin is sublime over all doubt, or better that Original Croatian Royal Blood lives. In other words, Croatia/Illyrian original origin of this blood line, but mixed with Hungarian and ancient Croatian King family blood lines are intertwined. Thus the name of this ancient family is from the original legendary family whose King was by the name of Hrvat. "Horvath" (Croat) were named in Hungary everyone however, this family is from aces [first family] .

This is exactly the way it is written in the archival records. It is a very rough translation but more to the point a very accurately stated translation.

I think it is probably safe to say my 4th Great Grandfather (male side of the family) who was Prince Josef Michael Horvat Torquatus von Radic mentioned in J. Siemacher's Wappenbuch, Band 35, page 68 - 69 who received title and properties in the year 1743 is a descendant from King Hrvat's family and the blend which is related to the Original Roman Manlius Torquatus branch by way of Hungarian Royal blood lines. I state this because the records state over and over again that we descend from Romanish Illyrian blood.

Very warm regards,

Princess Susanna Torquatus von Radic



also found this information very helpful and stories somewhat matched those told to me as a child from people who had no formal education (servants) and certainly no access to libraries with books even if they could read and write.


Click here: Thocomerius of Wallachia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Click here: List of rulers of Wallachia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Warm regards,

Princess Susanna Torquatus Von Radic

Thank you Cousin Eva:

This information you gave I quite helpful indeed. I am going to order records from these areas you mentioned to see if any matches there.

I saw records of migrations my made to Transylvania around 1600s. It states in this record that we owned property in Siebenburgen and Vel. Trgoviste in Zagorien. I am not completely certain where these areas exactly are located. I found Siebenburgen means the seven towers which is Vlad the Impaler's castle. The other area Vel. Trgoviste in Zagorien I am not firmly certain about. It does emanation that we are from a "Szent-Kiraly" blood line which translates to Sainted King. Then it says de Szekely gefuhrt and my Great Great Uncle Alfons v. Kraljic. It is together with this that there shows the migration to Modrus shortly after.

Regards,

Princess Susanna Torquatus Von Radic


Posted by Eva Bartosova

Horvath – Horvat –Hrvat –Horvathy – Bartos – Bertalan – Bartul – Bartol – Radic – Kraljic – Szekely

To see several lists of surnames see box Bartos on AncientFacesresearch
Try also see any surname carefuly on Ancientfaces.com/research, because some can be in its box more information than in this article and only then you can understand genealogical tree, which is from my correspondence.

By Eva Bartosova

Correspondence with Princess Susanna Torquatus von Raditsch:


Dear Cousin Eva:

Josef was very often the middle names but on many documents and records they used variants of all names; first, middle and of course many had various middle names. I saw one that had more than six middle names! I will have to see the pedigree when it is complete for the pattern. The first name of males from my side of the family (Maternal side) seems have been Nicholas, Duimo (Dominic, and or Lord) and Bertalan (Bartul-Bartol).

The item I wanted to explain about the name "Horvat - Horvath" is an interesting and lengthy story that should probably be shared with others. I found out from studies and records that the word "Horvat - Horvath - Horvathy" means "Croat - Croatian," the place of origin or nationality. There were periods throughout history when Croatians were kicked out of their own lands and forced to migrate to other countries away from normal cities or in small villages; refugee sites.

The Diaspora had their own family surnames; However, lands they migrated to often identified Croats with the addition of "Horvat - Horvath - Horvathy" as part of their surnames in addition to their own family surnames. They used this method to identify that they were originally born or derived from Croatian lands. There were some Croats themselves who used this method as a way to not loose their own identification or nationality where they could easily be blended into other cultures over time.

In some cases some Croats saw this act as a parallel similar to the treatment as Jews. Nazis forced Jews to wear a yellow star outside their clothing. This was a way of keeping the Horvat or Croats separate from their own. Calling yourself or your family "Horvat (Hrvat)" is different from having it forced upon your family by means of basic identification papers. A more clear explanation is that in some cases being called a Horvat had it's own interpretations for the time. As a result of their refugee status, they were seen as gypsies, undesirables. Which is derogatory. To complicate matter further new patronymic suffixes were also added as a result of the migrations.

Croatians have suffered a lot of damages throughout history. Many have been led astray by dominant political powers. These dominant polical powers used methods such as altering the historical facts concerning Croatian History itself where they often re-wrote history to suit their political agendas and sometimes to quell unrest. This was more evident during World War I, World War II and even more recent times as opposed to more ancient times where we know history was often exaggerated.

Croatian history is one of the most complicated histories of all because of it's location. It's military strategic location is prime territory, migratory routes (Croatia was the main artery for Christians during the Crusades), pristine panoramic views and rich agricultural lands have also been the cause of much unrest off and on throughout history. There have been many rulers from various different countries that usurped the efforts from Original Croatian Royal blood lines. This land has been coveted for centuries on end. This includes Byzantium, Rome/Italy, Hungary, Poland, Austria, Serbia (more modern rulers not related to ancient original Serbian Royal lineage's) and others.

The reason that I mentioned modern Serbian rulers not from ancient original Serbian Royal lineage is because, since ancient periods before Hungary's takeover and long after, throughout history, the original Croatian Royal lines intermarried with Serbian, Montenegrin, Slovenian, Bosnia-Herzegovinan, Dalmatian, Roman, German, and French Royal Blood lines; and not to mention with those from the stronger ruling countries such as Austria, Hungary, and Italy. This seems to be a fact that is often ignored. Political parties have often used propaganda to hide this fact as a tool to fan the fires between the different areas involved periodically. Instead of creating peace or unification by telling the truth that Royal Families of these areas intermarried with each other for centuries. Therefore they are all related and family to each other.

My overall lengthy point is that the Original Royal Croatian family's surname was "Hrvat." This was taken from the legendary King called "Hrvat" who ruled 626 to 635. There were five brothers and two sisters from this branch of original family members. The brothers' names were Klukas, Lobel, Kosjenc, Muhlo, Hrvat, Tuga and Buga.

The original seven siblings (5 brothers and the 2 sisters) led the Croats from the area around Krakow, Poland into the Balkans. They were invited by Byzantine Emperor Heraclius who ruled between 610 to 641 to help him fight the Avars and get them out of Illyria/Panonia/Croatia. The Croats were awarded lands as a place to settle as payment for their sacrifices and loss of family during these wars. Shortly before or shortly after their agreement and settlement to the area, as it was custom to do in those days, the Byzantine Emperor Heralius fortified his relationship with them by way of an arranged marriage(s) between an approved party of his own family and theirs. This was done for the obvious reasons. This is a typical Roman "foedus aequum relationship" which is illustrated by tenth century Emperor Constantine VII Prophyrogenet: "De Administrando Imerio" which translates " The Administration/Government Imperial Empire" (About Ruling the Empire), chapter 31.

By the way in Tungus mythology, Buga is the supreme God (akin to Tengri) and represents the entire universe. "Buga" also means universe. Buga Sangarin is the name Tungus shamans given to the North Star, which is regarded as the gateway to heaven. I was told this is also an Huns name given to a speical eldest clan member. Whether this is true or not, I don't know for sure.
Tengris: Tengriism was the ancient belief of all Turkic peoples and Mongols before the vast majority joined the established world religions. It focuses around the sky deity Tengri (also Tangri, Tangra, etc.) and incorporates elements of shamanism, animism, totemism, ancestor worship and certain elements of Chinese cosmology. In modern Turkey Tengriism is sometimes called as Göktanr religion by some scholars. Even though there has not been enough research, Tengriism is thought to heavily influence Alevi belief system.
Attila the Hun's period was between 406 - 453. I was told that after his death there was a great struggle for power amongst the remaining family members. What complicated things were the various wives and children he had with these women. I was told about a family curse that the second wife admitted to amongst our family members because she felt her child should inherit it all. The curse was said that we would live under quarrels or under corals for as long as the blood line lives. I could not fully understand the elder's words, therefore quarrels or corals is confusing to me. The elder person who described this story to me was ill and dying as they said it.

According to the family's account there was a great amount of rumor spread and this created a lot of strife for the eldest son's ascension to the throne/power. This arguing caused the end of Attila the Huns family's power. This should have taught them a valuable lesson of family sticking together. Who married who from the family to the Roman Emperor's family or the details of this period still needs sorting out. As I know things, my end of the family was the branch that eventually was the branch that became King of the Lombards and Dukes of Fruili, Benevento and Spoleto. From there they moved to Renne, France and became the Counts of Anjou.

Some people are not aware that most Royal blood lines held more than one title. Therefore you could be a King or Prince of one land and have inherited Count or Baron titles to other areas.

There is another point to be made clear as well; the surname "Horvat - Horvath - Horvathy" does not necessarily mean that you are a direct descendant of "King Hrvat" who ruled between 626 - 635. People need to keep in mind the refugee process where a family could have obtain this surname by way of refugee sites.

However, with our family it was legally and properly noted for whatever reasons at the time as in J. Siebmacher's Wappenbuch, Band 35, Page 64 - 65 and original documents in Italian/Austrian/Croatian National Archives and research studies from Count Wilczek (famous explorer and one of the first archeologists) in 1896 in Austrian library regarding the Horvat I de Palisna, the direct branch of my family from male line of the 14th century, there are significant records of our family. All of the records stated that
"Our family's bloodline derives from an Emperor that lived 367 B.C." It then goes on to state:

"The Horvat of Palisna are Ancient Croatian Noble bloodline which comes from Palisna [today Paleznik] in the Old Cruiser Comitate [County] and bit of the domination Horvati Ostlich of Djakovar, in the old Comitate Vukovo [County of Vukovo/Ancient Illyrian-Roman-Greco].

With the Horvat were a tribe and coming the families Palisna, Mikulasich [Michaelich], Terzek [Turzcek], Kustyer, Zöld and Sos were the sammtlich [sammt: collective part steming from] - lich: laughed – Croatian: Rad – happy or glad, patronomic suffix ić – family Radić] in Palisna were titled and propertied.

The large historic roll, which Paul Horvat of Palisna, Bishop of Zagreb (1379 – 1387) his brother Johann Horvat v. Palisna, Ban of Croatia (1385 – 1386, 1387), and his relative Johann of Palisna, Prior of Vrana and Ban of Croatia (1385 – 1386, 1388) historical role played, is generally well known and needs described here not more in more detail.

The newer Hungarian historians challenged the family Horvat (or like it to write choose Horvathy, Hrvat, Kroat,) and "of Palisna" and maintain that the Horvats are derived of a Hungarian Genus [race] by the name of from Vancha or Bancha.

On the other hand, it is probable that Count Wilczek, agrees that the family Horvat are of Palisna an illegitimate next to branch from the “King’s House of Anjou”. For this hypothesis, also existing is a crest, further proof of the entire effectiveness of this family speaks and finally the circumstance that they become in contemporary of Original that specific consanguinei [from the pure blood] of the Anjou genes [race].

The bottom notation from these records stated this:

*) Although all families Names Horvath stems out of Croatia this is not the case with this particular family. We have received heir nevertheless, whose Croatian origin is sublime over all doubt, or better that Original Croatian Royal Blood lives. In other words, Croatia/Illyrian original origin of this blood line, but mixed with Hungarian and ancient Croatian King family blood lines are intertwined. Thus the name of this ancient family is from the original legendary family whose King was by the name of Hrvat. "Horvath" (Croat) were named in Hungary everyone however, this family is from aces [first family] .

This is exactly the way it is written in the archival records. It is a very rough translation but more to the point a very accurately stated translation.

I think it is probably safe to say my 4th Great Grandfather (male side of the family) who was Prince Josef Michael Horvat Torquatus von Radic mentioned in J. Siemacher's Wappenbuch, Band 35, page 68 - 69 who received title and properties in the year 1743 is a descendant from King Hrvat's family and the blend which is related to the Original Roman Manlius Torquatus branch by way of Hungarian Royal blood lines. I state this because the records state over and over again that we descend from Romanish Illyrian blood.

Very warm regards,

Princess Susanna Torquatus von Radic



also found this information very helpful and stories somewhat matched those told to me as a child from people who had no formal education (servants) and certainly no access to libraries with books even if they could read and write.


Click here: Thocomerius of Wallachia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Click here: List of rulers of Wallachia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Warm regards,

Princess Susanna Torquatus Von Radic

Thank you Cousin Eva:

This information you gave I quite helpful indeed. I am going to order records from these areas you mentioned to see if any matches there.

I saw records of migrations my made to Transylvania around 1600s. It states in this record that we owned property in Siebenburgen and Vel. Trgoviste in Zagorien. I am not completely certain where these areas exactly are located. I found Siebenburgen means the seven towers which is Vlad the Impaler's castle. The other area Vel. Trgoviste in Zagorien I am not firmly certain about. It does emanation that we are from a "Szent-Kiraly" blood line which translates to Sainted King. Then it says de Szekely gefuhrt and my Great Great Uncle Alfons v. Kraljic. It is together with this that there shows the migration to Modrus shortly after.

Regards,

Princess Susanna Torquatus Von Radic


Posted by Eva Bartosova